Do we have to accept spam on our servers?

The crux of the idea is to force unsolicited email senders to put up currency (USD, crypto, or shells to barter; I don’t care) in escrow to have my permission to send me email (at a rate that each person gets to decide for their level of tolerance of spam). I either pre-approve an email sender, they pay to send me email, or I block them.
You never addressed why this wouldn’t cut down spam. Right now they send it for free. If they had to pay, they wouldn’t send it.
Under this scheme everyone gets the spam they deserve; that is, if it doesn’t bother you, set the price low or if you hate spam, set the price high.

Using cryptocurrency is just a way to make it work easily; and I say that as someone that understands it and how to make it work. Using USD or credit cards is transactionally far too expensive. That said, the mechanism for payment is secondary to the general idea. Make spam not free to send and it will decrease.

OK, once more from the top. I understood that premise all along. We have evidence (from the rise and fall of mail campaigns based on snail
mail) that there’s a price mail marketeers are willing to pay and a price they’re not, so making them pay more than it’s worth to them in terms of conversion to sales, they will turn to other mechanisms and yes, spam email will wind down. In principle that is, given very specific preconditions, which is where the rubber hits the road.

There are several pertinent issues with implementing your approach.

Firstly it still requires identification of spam email. If you automate it it’s no different to today and the casual email senders and the people they write to will suffer, and even if they don’t (because they don’t actually use email anymore) the spammer enablers till kick up a big stink about them suffering so you’d be forced to relax the criteria, just like they are today.

If you remove the automated spam identification you’re back to every mail user having to evaluate every message to see if it’s spam or not. They won’t. They’ll simply abandon their mailboxes or keep them purely as a dumpster to go search in if and when they are waiting for some 2/MFA or password change email. Before they set up to become part of any spam-busting campaign they will rather set up an automatic response to every email they receive saying they don’t look at email anymore and if they must be contacted to find them at this or that social media handle.

I didn’t address that because that isn’t the question. It’s whether it will work but whether it can be implemented with foolproof accuracy and without messing with people’s already tenuous use of email. I did tell you in no uncertain terms why crypto is out of the question and also hinted to the fact that if it involves enough money to cover traditional transaction costs (and all the intermediaries that have their fingers in every pie like the banks and the card companies) then the overall cost to everyone would probably outweigh its value to anyone and everyone.

On that point you’re sorely mistaken regarding the general public. Very few are comfortable with crypto while the rest feel overwhelmed and highly exposed to getting taken for a ride if they open their machines or phones or selves to crypto. Consequently most would not touch it unless they can be shielded from dealing directly with crypto which means they’d require dealing with a clearing house or broker of sorts. By the time such a broker is involved it would be much simpler, transparent and safer to facilitate the transactions between senders and receivers using micro transactions they keep track of themselves in regular currencies.

But it doesn’t stop there. The transaction costs to deal with one individual mail at a time in standard currency is certainly too high because of the existing fingers in the existing pie. But even if those were bypassed by using a currency with lower intrinsic transaction costs the brokerage / clearing house / email permissions operator would be forced by the sheer volume of disputes of tiny amounts and individual email to either charge exorbitant fees of their own or operate with such limited staff that they cannot possibly hope to meet the service expectations of their customers.

Which brings us back the the original objection to this approach - people genuinely don’t care enough about spam in their email to change anything about email habits. Sure they don’t like spam and they often need to spend time they don’t have scanning through junk for that mail they expect, but they’re set in their ways and if they are going to change anything and keep using email they would simply move their mailboxes to email service provided that protect them from spam.

For fear of painting a target on my back or that of the service provider, I have a few mailboxes at a service provider where I have in the last 10 years received not one single spam message. I also have other mailboxes at other wel known providers where spam is not zero but rare. And then I have the mailboxes I run on MiaB where spam is rife. If the spam forces me into a corner, I will rather forfeit the benefits of self-hosting and move everything to mail providers who earn their keep by using the fact that they serve enough users to reliably detect spam. The crux of the proposal I put forward to test the temperature in this forum was to make all the MiaB servers work together to achieve the same effect as is being enjoyed by those but email providers which in essence means that any spammer that hits any one of their mailboxes would invariably hit others too and that’s all they need. I was (and still am, if push comes to shove) saying we can replicate the same behaviour for our servers meaning if one of our mailboxes are hit others will be too or it’s not spam but legitimate mail.

  1. earthlink already does this idea; every new email address can be required to perform some “only a human can do this” task to allow the email through. I would suspect that can be beat with good programming skills on the part of the spammer
  2. millions of people already do crypto and they have zero issue with it; it is called Venmo and PayPal. The current crypto ecosystem is in dire need of good UX/UI design for sure; but it is the only way to do anything like this due to its very tiny transaction costs.
  3. this scheme doesn’t require coordination nor exposure to thousands of accounts because it only matters at your or my MiaB server. One more API is added to the server that interjects itself into the process. The part I don’t know is how the spammer pays the escrow fee in this process; could easily copy from earthlink’s process but I am sure a better, more automated way can be designed.
  4. your anecdote about your spam free accounts is because you are paying for those providers to solve the issue for you. I think this scheme could work and not cost you anything; the only risk is that an unsolicited email sender falsely believes you want their email and pays you for that false belief.

I completely disagree that people don’t care about spam. It is universally hated; that much is clear. People might appear to not care anymore but I would heavily bet that is because of learned helplessness. There is nothing you can do about it, just like you can’t do anything about the unsolicited catalogs you get.

Lastly, you really might want to be more open to crypto; it is going to replace the money that we have today. Every feature or function of a bank has been built on the Solana network for instance. And those features cost the user magnitudes less money to be used. And many of those functions that were previously only available to the wealthy are available to anyone because of decentralization and tiny transaction costs.
More users will be onboarded by better user-centered design for sure. If my 78 year old MiL can get the basic concept that she earns crypto via her Helium Mobile cellular service account, assuredly others will ultimately understand this stuff. I will also point that most people don’t understand squat about how the compounding interest on their credit card account is actually calculated, but they have no problems using a credit card and managing their accounts.

As an ISP EarthLink offers mail services which means their servers “see” the mail going to all their customers’ mailboxes and can make determinations from that just like all the other email providers uses the same situation to reliably detect spam and deal with it in what get manner their customers ask for. There’s no mystery, micro transactions or unfair advantages involved. The challenge we face as MiaB admins is that individually our users don’t receive enough common-origin messages to identify spam the same way large shared mail providers can. That is the fundamental issue at hand which your proposed solution does nothing to address. Your approach still makes it every recipient for himself, i.e. nobody has a broader view than just their own mailbox. It doesn’t what hair brain scheme with escrow payments and rewards you dream up, it won’t get anywhere because it doesn’t address the most basic problem. But once you have solved that fundamental problem, exactly how you handle identified spam is a free choice. You can monetise access to your mailbox if you want to or simply bask in the absence of spam. It’s not the spam toll that will reduce spam but the inability to send spam without getting caught out.

Not my experience but it doesn’t really matter. Whatever crypto needs to go from having users to being the de facto standard must first be put in place, then allowed to convert people by making it an order of magnitude or two easier to use than anything else, then withstand the countermeasures instituted by the incumbent currencies to finally win the war and become all people use. For the system to work for me it must already be what everyone else has chosen to use otherwise I’m the one swimming upstream at my own expense, and by the time I find myself grossly outnumbered by a world filled with crypto users I will gladly make the switch. Making the switch now would mean I am swimming upstream now and it would be at my expense. Now you could of course argue that if everybody did what I am doing crypto would never get there, and you’d be exactly right. It’s not my job or that of the billions of non-crypto users to accept the change to crypto, so until crypto makes it so much better for all of us to switch, those who do switch will remain a minority of martyrs. My only job is to do what I believe to be in my best interest and that of every community I feel aligned with.

As explained above, that is its fundamental flaw, and by the time you’ve ironed out that flaw you won’t be needing the proposed scheme at all because all it really needs is the coordination between servers (but without exposing thousands of email accounts).

That I’m paying them is a fact I’m pretty sure I’ve acknowledged.

If you’re sure, go ahead and make it so. What are you asking me for? Why are you arguing with me? If you know and you know why know, then you know and should do nothing other than act on it. But you don’t know, you think, or more to the point, you’re clinging onto hope that your singular original thought would be vindicated. People will not be lining up to vindicate you. If you’re onto something useful they’d keep it to themselves to see where it goes. If they come up with a slightly modified version that works where yours wouldn’t, they’d keep that to themselves as well. So if you are sure you’ve got the best possible solution already thought through you better hurry along and make sure you’re first to market with that solution, because anyone that can derive something even better from your ideas would race to implement that instead while you’re wasting your time on something that is beaten before you can launch it. So far your solution had not shown any sign of evolving in response to the feedback we (mostly me) have given you on it. I suggest that if you genuinely don’t recognise that your solution needs to improve not only now but over its entire lifespan you should drop it like a hot potato. If you’re hiding the fact that you are in fact adjusting what you aim to implement based on this discussion then good for you, I’ll send you my bill once you are successful.

I made assumptions along those same lines, but rather than act on gut-feel I chose to test them. This post is exactly how I went about that, and the result was quite clear - yes people dislike spam, often passionately, but not enough to get them to move an inch towards a different or uncertain future. Better the devil you know than the devil you don’t. I didn’t like that outcome, but I am glad I opened myself to the possibility before spending energy chasing a solution that technically would work but would never be given a chance to flourish because the problem it solves is not really a burning platform for most.

No, I really won’t want to. I’ll be amongst the last few to change if or when it becomes unbearable not to. That’s my service to my fellow human. If crypto doesn’t work for them yet, let them be free to stick with what does work for them. Once the crypto exponents have done all that needs to be done to make crypto to easiest most natural choice for everyone, my duty would be done and I can make the switch myself. I said the very same thing before the rise and before the fall of Windows. Same thing. Follow what works for the masses because whatever wants to change what works for the masses must make it easier for the masses to choose the new thing than it is to stick with the old, and when I am just one of the masses that means they must make it easier for me too. My predictions based on that had been spot on every time.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud; after a while you realize you are muddy and the pig is enjoying it.

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And yet it’s the engineers who have to implement the brilliant ideas of the non-engineers. And if an idea doesn’t work out because a decision-maker insisted on implementing it despite the engineers’ warnings, it’s of course still the engineers’ fault :wink:

Disclaimer:
I’m not an engineer!